Curse

Zinger314 · Oct 02, 2006, 03:16 AM // 03:16

I think Hero vs. Hero is a vastly underhyped game concept. It's much more deep than you may think.

Hero vs. Hero is basically a direct combination of the Random Arenas and the Team Arenas. You enter a group with you and 3 other Heroes you handcrafted yourself, similar to Team Arenas (but unlike Team Arenas PuGs, you are sure what skills your group has, heh.

). However, once you get in-to battle, the mixture of Player Skill and AI Luck takes fold. The AI usually can't chain skills correctly (which can be exploited!). The sole player usually determines the sole outcome of the battle. (or destroy it. There will probably be soo many bad groups in HvH.)

So, how do you organize a group of Heroes so that it's not to difficult for the AI to handle, yet is effective at killing people? Discuss.

(I don't think the information about HvH will change soon, so I think it's open for discussion.

)

Personally, I think the best idea is to stick to the old-weaknesses of RA/TA: Hexes and Degeneration. Therefore:

PC: Necromancer; Blood Spike w/ Reaper's Mark (Elite). Reaper's mark, due to its long duration, will be a powerful force.

Hero1: Necromancer; Curses w/ Corrupt Enchantment (Elite). Corrupt Enchantment is the uber-degeneration Hex. If groups can't handle Hexes, Corrupt Enchantment will make short work of them.

Hero2: Ranger; Interrupter w/ Magebane Shot (Elite). If the group can handle Hexes, the Interrupter can silence the Monk.

Hero3: Paragon; Motivation Protector w/ Angelic Bond (Elite). Anti-Spike. Spiking will probably be a popular technique. Therefore, Angelic Bond, along with self-heals on the other team-members (Life-Steal on PC, Parasitic Bond on Hero1, Troll Uguent on Hero2), in addition to the traditional Motivation Heals, the group can't be spiked easily.

Any opinions?

-Loki- · Oct 02, 2006, 09:13 AM // 09:13

If it's deathmatch style like every other arena, it'll come down to who can micro manage their whole teams skills the best. If it's got some objectives... It'll still come down to who can micromanage their teams skills the best.

Khift · Oct 02, 2006, 12:28 PM // 12:28

I predict teams of 4x touch rangers.

Touchers are easy enough to play that a monkey could play one and be just as good as anyone else. Thus the AI should be able to handle them. Also, although counterable by good players, those counters are esoteric and skill based -- the AI won't be able to handle the counter tactics. Hell, the AI probably won't even kite. And in the end, letting four touchers rage all over your group = gg.

JYX · Oct 02, 2006, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Touchies yeah, I was thinking more IWAY though. I've never seen the AI effectively kite. Some of the masters of healing/protection etc "kite", but all they end up doing is running around in small circles, meaning every hit lands but every hit is a crit.

If it does turn out the AI is completely incapable of kiting, this will be key.

In terms of builds, I think it will be pure trial and error what the AI can handle and what it can't. Some things the developers have obviously equipped it with, for example it will never do gash -> sever artery, but will it do executioners -> eviscerate? We'll have to see.

Zinger314 · Oct 02, 2006, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Also a point of comment: A Pure Toucher team can't work, since there's a maximum of 2 Heroes per profession.

Khift · Oct 02, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Also a point of comment: A Pure Toucher team can't work, since there's a maximum of 2 Heroes per profession.

What makes you think they'll gimp the system like that? They mentioned that when you earn a hero it unlocks a PvP hero of the same class for your PvP characters -- who is to say that you can duplicate these PvP heroes?

Zinger314 · Oct 02, 2006, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

What makes you think they'll gimp the system like that? They mentioned that when you earn a hero it unlocks a PvP hero of the same class for your PvP characters -- who is to say that you can duplicate these PvP heroes?

GuildWiki never lies. Two Monks have been confirmed. Magrid is probably a Ranger, so that makes 2 Rangers.

Khift · Oct 02, 2006, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

GuildWiki never lies. Two Monks have been confirmed. Magrid is probably a Ranger, so that makes 2 Rangers.

You didn't answer my second statement, the one that had the weight in it.

Zinger314 · Oct 02, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

You didn't answer my second statement, the one that had the weight in it.

Your second statement is irrelevant (since PvE players can), but technically, it's a "Yes."

Also, I'm unsure where ArenaNet said that Heroes would be available for PvP characters (since Heroes are a PvE concept, and Nightfall is a PvE update). Link?

Khift · Oct 02, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Your second statement is irrelevant (since PvE players can), but technically, it's a "Yes."

Also, I'm unsure where ArenaNet said that Heroes would be available for PvP characters (since Heroes are a PvE concept, and Nightfall is a PvE update). Link?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArenaNet Updates Page

Hero Battles - After the release of Nightfall you will be able to unlock Heroes for your use with your PvP characters, and you will be able to bring Heroes into a new type of PvP where players can compete head-to-head for the first time.

Heroes are not just a PvE concept, seeing as they're the centerpiece of a new PvP format.

SnipiousMax · Oct 02, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by JYX

Touchies yeah, I was thinking more IWAY though. I've never seen the AI effectively kite. Some of the masters of healing/protection etc "kite", but all they end up doing is running around in small circles, meaning every hit lands but every hit is a crit.

If it does turn out the AI is completely incapable of kiting, this will be key.

In terms of builds, I think it will be pure trial and error what the AI can handle and what it can't. Some things the developers have obviously equipped it with, for example it will never do gash -> sever artery, but will it do executioners -> eviscerate? We'll have to see.

Agreed.

I think that this won't be so much who micromanages the best, but more, who streamlines the Hero's AI the best. Alot of this battle is going to be won or lost in how the party is set up.

suiraCLAW · Oct 02, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Combine 2 facts:

- Henchmen interrupt everything.
- Hero's use the same AI as henchmen (AFAIK)

I would be surpised if the result of this won't be exploited (WTB hero ranger(s) with magebane shot).

Pkest · Oct 02, 2006, 05:46 PM // 17:46

I agree that this will be a deep and fun format. There should always be something that beats something else. Individual player skill both in planning the build and during the battle will be paramount. I'm not much of a pvper but I'm really looking forward to exploring this format.

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 02, 2006, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pkest

I agree that this will be a deep and fun format. There should always be something that beats something else. Individual player skill both in planning the build and during the battle will be paramount.

I don't really see how a gametype that's mostly about build is going to be particularly 'deep.' I didn't use the henchman much in the preview event, but it seems like most of the match will come down to who sets them up with the best build for the AI, rather than who plays the best.

To put it another way - IWAY and Bloodspike are complex and difficult builds to create, but they're hideously easy to run and no one is saying that playing those makes for a deep gametype. While I'll reserve judgement until I see the gametype in action, I think it will be more about who gets the best build from a forum than who can actually play the game.

SnipiousMax · Oct 02, 2006, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

While I'll reserve judgement until I see the gametype in action, I think it will be more about who gets the best build from a forum than who can actually play the game.

A hyped version of "War" the card game?

LoyalSoldier · Oct 02, 2006, 09:45 PM // 21:45

To be honest I would think that Spike builds would be an easy one to do. If you get your Heros to stop attacking it would be easy to get a spike of some sort going.

One thing I would be concerned about is Macros. The ability to micromanage with just one button would be game changing.

Horseman Of War · Oct 02, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

GuildWiki never lies. Two Monks have been confirmed. Magrid is probably a Ranger, so that makes 2 Rangers.

Well yes the wiki doesnt *lie* however at times its quite ignorant.

Youd be better off not using wiki as a bible, but rather a newsweek.

Clamatius · Oct 03, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I don't really see how a gametype that's mostly about build is going to be particularly 'deep.' I didn't use the henchman much in the preview event, but it seems like most of the match will come down to who sets them up with the best build for the AI, rather than who plays the best.

To put it another way - IWAY and Bloodspike are complex and difficult builds to create, but they're hideously easy to run and no one is saying that playing those makes for a deep gametype. While I'll reserve judgement until I see the gametype in action, I think it will be more about who gets the best build from a forum than who can actually play the game.

I think micro skill may be pretty significant but generally I agree.

That's why I think sealed deck hero vs. hero could be amusing - if you're going to emphasize build construction, go all the way. I see two obvious implementations:

1) Each player gets a fixed sealed deck skill unlock pool per <time increment>, say per day. Set your main character and heroes up from that.

or

2) As (1) except every player has the same unlock pool. "Fairer" at the cost of less diversity but may have the interesting effect of creating a daily metagame.

Khift · Oct 03, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clamatius

I think micro skill may be pretty significant but generally I agree.

That's why I think sealed deck hero vs. hero could be amusing - if you're going to emphasize build construction, go all the way. I see two obvious implementations:

1) Each player gets a fixed sealed deck skill unlock pool per <time increment>, say per day. Set your main character and heroes up from that.

or

2) As (1) except every player has the same unlock pool. "Fairer" at the cost of less diversity but may have the interesting effect of creating a daily metagame.

Good lord, are you that big of a glutton for punishment?

The hero AI uses some skills exceptionally well -- like interrupts -- and many more skills utterly horribly. Now granted, they are still developing the hero AI, but honestly there is only a month left worth of time to develop the game. They'll probably hit the skills the AI is the worst with but not be able to touch the ones they're just 'bad' with.

Some examples I noticed when trying out builds with Dunkoro:

- Heal Other is used immediately upon damage. 5 damage? Heal Other. 16 damage? Heal Other. Someone starts bleeding? Heal Other. As a result Dunkoro ran out of energy so fast it wasn't even funny.

- Inspired Hex, the skill itself, the AI handles fine. It's what it gets replaced with that is the problem. Basically, unless you like to see your monks spam Conjure Phantasm don't bring iHex.

- Using Holy Veil results in your hero maintaining three different copies of Holy Veil on three nearby allies, regardless of how many times you cancel those veils.

- Infuse Health is just ba-a-a-ad. I don't even know what I was thinking bringing that skill in.

And then there are other skills which the AI just doesn't know how to use. The AI doesn't know who to use Protective Spirit on. I can't blame it, it's a pretty esoteric concept. It doesn't understand how to use Parasitic Bond to cover hexes. It doesn't understand when to use run buffs and defensive stances. These skills aren't necessarily harmful and destructive to your gameplan like the ones above, but they are definitely failing to progress it.

What the good HvH player will do is create skill bars with 8 skills the AI does use well. He will avoid these problematic skills entirely.

The point of sealed play is to force players to adapt to unique circumstances that never happen in normal competitive play. It forces you to use skills you aren't familiar with and adapt. This AI does not adapt. It is rigid and inflexible.

HvH and sealed deck don't go well together. It goes against the concept of sealed deck and all it does manage to do is emphasize how poorly heros use esoteric skills.

unmatchedfury · Oct 11, 2006, 02:46 AM // 02:46

as long as we can have any combination of heros this thing shoudld be great.
it won't be new player friendly though, you need a fair amount of unlocks to make a balenced team. having limited class combos would make this worse.

i.e.having only 2 monks or rangers to work with..